Academic vs. community hospital for surgery residency

Here's question from a senior med student at a state school. She has excellent grades, USMLE Step 1 and 2 scores > 245, has co-authored 4 published papers, and was elected to AOA. She writes

I am looking to re-locate to a large city for residency as a number of my family members live there. I have interviewed at the large academic centers in the city as well as their community affiliates. I have also been involved in research and always assumed I would enjoy the biggest "named" institution possible. As I have interviewed, I truly feel that I would get better training (and be happier) and the academic-affiliated community programs in that city. However I have been told my several advisors at my home school that this would be "career suicide" and it would be "idiotic" not to take the best name that I have a chance at matching at. As far as fellowship, I have literally no idea what I want to do. Maybe surgical oncology, maybe transplant? Maybe vascular, maybe nothing?!

What is your insight into this? Should I seek what I perceive to be the best training/fit or should I rank the higher name academic programs for the sake of my career?

Here's my opinion. Be advised that it is strictly my opinion and may be neither popular or correct.

You should have no problem matching at any affiliated community hospital program and probably have a very good chance to match at every academic program in the city you want to be in.

I hope you have properly researched your top choices and are confident that the residents are happy and doing a lot of cases. Also you should be sure that the leadership of the program is stable. I suppose your mentors your school want you to take the academic track because that's what they did. It also enhances the reputation of the school when its students match in big name programs.

You remind me of me except I didn't have the publications you do. I took the "comfortable" choice for residency and never regretted it. I trained in the same city you are looking at. It's a great place to live.

I see it this way. Suppose after a couple of years in a community program, you decide you want to be an academic surgeon. After you residency, you can always take a fellowship in something at an academic medical center.

But if you go with a university program and are miserable, then what do you do? Five years (plus a year or two of research) is a long time to be miserable.

I went into more detail about this in a post three years ago.

Listen to your heart. Go for the place that you feel most comfortable with.

I strongly suggest ranking all of the programs you feel you can live with—just in case.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.




Readers, feel free to disagree or agree as you see fit.

US citizen IMG surgery prelim resident needs advice

Maicon, a non-designated preliminary general surgery resident, writes

I read with interest your post on matching rates for international medical graduates. I am a US citizen IMG, born here, but grew up (since 2 years of age) in another country and completed my medical school there a few years ago.

My USMLE scores are step 1 - 235, step 2 - 251, Step 2CS and Step 3 passed on first attempt. Knowing that general surgery was hard to get, I worked (unpaid) in the surgery department at a large Northeastern academic center.

I got a prelim spot at a decent program with a program director I respect. I worked my ass off, studied hard, and got in on research projects early.

ABSITE: 1st year - 90th percentile (highest in our class), it got me a 2nd year at the same program, 2nd year - 79th percentile.

Did a ton of research with a couple of publications and presentation, and won a teacher award by med students. My evals were good, and I got great recommendation letters. I thought I covered my bases.

My program doesn't have a spot for a 3rd year and am unable to find one, despite the good intentions of my mentors. It is frustrating that, try as I might, I am still out of a residency on June 30th of this year.

Should I continue to pursue the surgical field, do a research fellowship which I have seen from previous blogs/articles doesn't help much, do a subspecialty fellowship (Cardiothoracic ICU/critical care/Burns), or switch to medicine or FP? From, your previous posts, I feel you will probably suggest to switch.

Thanks for reading my blog and for your email. I am sympathetic to your plight. I've seen it many times.

I wish I was still running a program. It sounds like I could have used someone like you.

If you have no financial or other pressure to get on with your life and are young enough, I suggest you take a fellowship in one of the clinical areas you mentioned such as critical care. An accredited one is preferred because you could take the board exam when you finally get through a 5-year GS program. Even a non-accredited fellowship in a clinical area is better than doing research. Your chances of obtaining a categorical spot are enhanced by taking care of patients instead of test tubes.

 If you do a good job with the fellowship, you might be able to sneak into a categorical slot somewhere. Make sure you take the ABSITE again too. The scores are really important.

Have your program director keep an eye on the program directors' list serve. Categorical slots open up frequently—even into June.

Good luck.

A college junior wonders if she will get into med school

[Email abridged and edited.] A 21-year-old married woman, who is a junior at a large public university, has always wanted to be a doctor. She had some family and mental health problems (panic attacks, depression) which have affected her grades. She has a current GPA of 2.8, but when recalculated by including grades in repeated courses and deleting the poorer grades as her college allows, her GPA is 3.3. She and her husband have a combined $24K of student loan debt.

She feels very strongly that her family and mental health are no longer issues and is getting A's in science courses that she previously did poorly in. She says, "I seriously feel like a completely different person. I feel capable of getting good grades. However, people keep telling me that I might not even make it into med school because of my low GPA. The thing is though I don't care what I have to do. I am so passionate about learning and helping people. My dream has been to work and eventually have a free clinic on the side to help people who can't afford healthcare. That's why I'm in this. But is there a chance I can even get in? I know that's what I want, but people (peers, degree advisors, and my anatomy professor) keep bringing me down."

This is a very difficult question to answer definitively. I really can't speculate on your chances of being accepted to medical school. Your level of commitment is outstanding.

There is one missing variable—your MCAT scores.

You may want to take the MCAT at the next available opportunity. Great scores would be encouraging. Poor scores would seal the deal. You would have to move on to something else.

Your combined debt is low and you are young, both of which will allow you to spend a little extra time beefing up your GPA.

If you are thinking about applying to offshore medical schools, please do some research. As US medical schools expand their classes and new schools open, there will be fewer residency positions for offshore graduates. If you look at Table 1 on page 2 of the 2013 match data for International Medical Graduates (IMGs), you will see that 2420 US citizen IMGs failed to match to a residency position. It's only going to get worse as I noted here.

Have you considered another option such as becoming a physician assistant? The path is shorter, and PAs are becoming more and more autonomous. It might help you to look at a post of mine from a couple of months ago on "Ask Skepticalscalpel" called "Should I be a nurse practitioneror a doctor?" Read the many comments because they are pertinent.

I hope this is helpful to you. Check back here for comments as they are often more useful than what I write.

Help! My friend didn't match in orthopedics ... again

Maicon [not his real name] writes

My friend wanted to be an orthopedist, but his grades and USMLE scores were just average for medical school—Step 1 was 215. He applied last year, got some interviews but didn't match. He started a research fellowship in ortho at an academic center and re-applied. I tried to tell him to defer applying until he finished the fellowship so he could have something to show for it other than, "I started a fellowship and working on blah blah blah." This year, he got fewer interviews and failed to match again. During all this, I had advised him to also apply to general surgery, but he always resisted. He now has decided to try for an unfilled general surgery preliminary position.

I realize this is an elaborate discussion however you would be doing a major service for many applicants of this kind who have nothing to go on other than delusions or conspiratory paranoia.

Sad to say, but this happens every year.

The advice to do a year of orthopedic research was misguided. He has just wasted a year of his life.

I'm not sure what goes on in orthopedics. However, in a recent post on how general surgery program directors select residents, I noted that previous research experience was extremely low on the list of criteria as was having done a preliminary general surgery year.

I wonder how many who do a research year succeed in getting an orthopedic residency position. My guess would be less than 5%, if at all.

He should be honest in his application for the general surgery non-designated preliminary position. The program directors will know the truth anyway. The good news is that there are over 450 unfilled positions this year and not enough bodies to fill them.

The bad news is that these positions can be dead ends in many cases. That is, your friend could do a year or two of preliminary surgery and then have no access to a third-year categorical spot. Another issue is that in some programs, non-designated prelims are treated like second class citizens by being given all the scut rotations.

There is some hope though. Here's a paper that found an amazing rate of success for non-designated prelim surgery residents obtaining categorical positions, but it's from Mass General. Abington Memorial Hospital reported surprisingly good outcomes. Yale's results weren't quite as good. UC-Denver also had some mixed results. There could be some publication bias here. Programs with dismal records of placing prelim trainees may not have chosen to report their experiences.

If he does obtain a preliminary spot, he must work very hard and do very well on the general surgery in-training examination in the hope that someone drops out or is cut from a categorical position and that he will be selected to replace that individual. If not, he will chalk up one or two more wasted years.

A backup plan for a different specialty career should be in mind in case he is unable to eventually secure a categorical general surgery position.

My feeling is that if an applicant doesn't match in a dream specialty, he should forget about a year of research, scrap that dream, and move on.

As always, comments are welcome.

A UK Med Student Discovers Surgery, Has Questions

Gareth (not his real name) writes

I came across your blog a few days ago and I have been reading it since. I am a third year medical student studying in the UK. I am writing to you because I would be grateful if I could get some advice. I have always wanted to become a doctor, since I was veryyyyy young, but I never ever considered a career in surgery. Before medical school, I believed that surgeons were like butchers, not capable of any human attachment for the patient etc etc. I believed I would not be able to bear the responsibility to cut someone open given the fact that I am a very emotional person. However, my perspective changed when I was in the OR and saw my first surgery. It was a coronary bypass surgery and I loved it, I loved the idea of making the patient better in such short time and the fact that the surgeon was the one responsible for it, I suppose it must be very satisfying. Therefore, I have started to consider a career in surgery, however, I am still very unsure of whether I have the right personality type and skills to become a surgeon. I still tend to get very attached and moved by patients' stories and experiences and I don't know whether that would help me detach myself from the patient whilst operating. Also, most surgeons seem to be extremely confident and outgoing whereas I tend to be shy and not confident, even though I'm quite good academically. So I am really confused right now. Also, I have never had great hand skills, even though I took some introductory surgical skills courses and they went quite well. I seem to get a bit of tremor when I do practical stuff though, I guess that's because I get nervous. 

I'd like to ask you one more thing. If I do decide to go for a career in surgery, is there any point for me to try and take the USMLE and apply for a US residency after graduation? I heard surgery it's really competitive, I guess many schools don't even accept international applicants?

Thank you very much for your time and dedication. I admire the passion that you show.

Thank you for reading my blog and for writing. I am glad that you have realized what a rewarding career surgery can be.

First let's talk about the "surgical personality." There was a time when most surgeons could have been categorized into a couple of personality types. Those days are gone. Now that 40% of all surgical residents are women it is no longer necessary to be a certain type of individual. I know many surgeons who are quiet, thoughtful and introspective. You need to dismiss any thoughts about your personality type being incompatible with a career in surgery. Also it is not a bad thing for a surgeon to identify with and become attached to his patients.

The next myth is that one must have great dexterity to become a surgeon. In the old days some residency programs use to screen applicants by making them build model airplanes. I don't believe anyone still does that. Now it seems that video game skills are much more important since so many procedures are done laparoscopically. I believe that anyone can become a more than decent technical surgeon through practice. We all get nervous. This is a real person you are operating on. I have written that there is more to surgery than manual skills. It is very important to know who to operate on and when to operate on them as well as who not to operate on.

I have written before about the decreasing chances of graduates from non-US medical schools obtaining residencies in the United States. US medical schools are expanding their class sizes and a new schools are opening. It is not even clear that all us graduates will be able to obtain residency positions in the future. The most recent statistics from the match show that only about 5% of non-US citizen graduates of foreign schools matched into categorical general surgery positions. However, I do not believe you have anything to lose by trying. You will need to get an excellent score on the USMLE and of course, have good grades and recommendations. Although it is difficult, some trainees from the UK have been able to find fellowships in the US. I do not know how easy that will be in the next few years.

Good luck

A pre-med student asks some probing questions

Here are some questions from Lionel, a pre-med student.

What is something you wish you had known before entering medical school?

It would have been nice to have known what changes were going to occur over the 40+ years since I graduated.

If you had the opportunity to choose a specialty all over again, would you do surgery again?

Yes. While I have often envied the controlled lifestyles and flexibility of radiologists and anesthesiologists, I don't think I could have stood the sitting in the dark all day (radiology) or utter boredom 95% of the time (anesthesia).

If not medicine, what other healthcare occupation would you consider to be more rewarding?

It depends on how you define rewarding. It seems to me that being CEO of a hospital is more rewarding financially these days. I have blogged about that. Is it more satisfying on any other level? I don't think so.

Is it possible to carry a healthy relationship where the significant other is not a medical student? Would it be more/less difficult in residency compared to medical school? [this is one I'm mostly interested in especially since you are a surgeon]

I am living proof that it is possible to have a healthy relationship with someone who is not a med student or physician. I met my wife, who is a nurse, when I was an intern. We were married when I was a third-year resident and still going strong at 39 years.

What implications have enduring medical school/residency had on your personality?

I was always kind of a pessimist, but med school and beyond amplified that trait a lot. As some people have written about lately, med school and residency can induce cynicism, and I'm afraid I am a classic example of that.

Does every single day of the year feel stressful or are there days where you feel in control and free to relax?

Since I retired late last year, the days are not particularly stressful right now. When I was an active surgeon, just about every day was very stressful. It took at least the first five days of every vacation to unwind, longer if I had gone away and left a sick patient to be managed by someone else. Here's a link to a post I wrote about "collateral damage," which is about how complications affect surgeons.

I have always dreamed that being a physician would help me feel more connected spiritually to god/universe by seeing all the unfortunate people and being able to lend compassion. However, does being under constant stress distract a physicians focus from that feeling and does it make you just want to finish the job and go home?

There were many days when I just wanted to finish the job and go home. I would like to think though that I was able to get past that and offer my patients the compassion and support they needed.

What do you like/dislike the most about your journey thus far?

I liked the challenge of figuring out what was wrong with a patient and having the ability to fix it. I liked the feeling of satisfaction after helping someone who was really sick get better. Today I got an email from a former patient who is 10 years postop from breast cancer surgery and disease free. Hearing that is hard to beat.

I took every complication, whether it was my fault or not, very personally. That can wear you down. I didn't like the empty feeling that I got when I operated on a patient and found something like incurable cancer. It was frustrating not to be able to do anything about it. It is very hard to look someone in the eye and tell him that the surgery did not solve the problem.